Bridging Generations in Sales and Outreach

E6 with Mark McKenzie - Meeting Buyers Where They Are: A 50-Year Journey of Adaptation

• Butch Nicholson • Season 1 • Episode 6

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Running a business used to mean showing up, shaking hands, and closing deals face to face. Today? It’s about finding new ways to build trust, stay relevant, and keep relationships strong, even when the world goes remote.

In this episode, Butch Nicholson sits down with Mark McKenzie, co-owner of DocuqMax Digital Printing, to talk about how a family-owned print shop has thrived for nearly 50 years by putting people first and adapting everything else.

Mark shares what it’s like to lead a business with four brothers, how he has navigated disruption from Adobe to COVID, and why his relationship-first mindset still works in a digital-first world.

Tune in to hear practical insights on:

  • How to stay in business for five decades and still evolve with confidence
  • Why building trust beats chasing transactions every time
  • How Mark pivoted during COVID with creative, human-first outreach
  • Why LinkedIn is the most powerful sales tool seasoned leaders are not fully using
  • How giving back and showing up keeps your network warm, even when you are not selling

If you are a business leader adapting to modern prospecting without losing your personal touch, Mark’s story will remind you that success still starts with relationships.

Bridging Generations in Sales and Outreach is hosted by Robert (BUTCH) NICHOLSON and produced by Fist Bump

Helping Gen X and Baby Boomer leaders turn their reputation into revenue—without losing the human touch.

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(Butch) So, welcome to Bridging Generations in Sales and Outreach. I'm Butch Nicholson. I'll be your host today. And this is the show that experienced leaders come to level up. And first off, I want to thank this bump who manages and produces our show. We greatly appreciate that. And I'm going to introduce my guest, Mark McKenzie. I have(Butch) to tell you just a quick little story. Atlanta, Metro Atlanta is made up of probably 20 small cities. And 50 years ago when I was growing up here, they were really different cities. Now it's just kind of all encompassing. But before I met Mark, I was told that he was the mayor of two different cities in that area. And what they really meant was he was so well connected(Butch) in both of those places that he knew more than the mayor did about the place. So I'm gonna introduce Mark and ask him just to tell us a little bit, he's got a really interesting business journey just to take a few minutes and tell us about that so you'll know where we're coming(Mark) from on this show. Butch, thank you. I appreciate that. So we started our journey, my brothers and I own and operate DocuMax Digital Printing and we started our journey probably about, I don't know, in 1975 is when the company started. So we've almost been doing printing for almost 50 years as a small family owned business. And it's there's been a lot of changes in printing. There's been a lot of changes in the way people do business.(Mark) And learning how to pivot has been crucial to us surviving and thriving. So, and I do appreciate the nice comment about being the mayor. When you have three other brothers in the family business with you and they know 250, 300 people and I know 300 people. All of a sudden we combine we know about 1200 more people than most others. So it's easy to become a(Butch) mayor and be known as a mayor. So thank you. Hey Mark, just so one thing to share, Mark's in business with four other brothers. There's gotta be some connection and some interesting dynamics in a company that's been around for 50 years with four brothers owning it.(Mark) Yeah, there are. We probably, probably about 25, 30 years ago, we basically needed help. And basically working in a family business, there's a lot of dynamics, there's a lot of wants and needs.(Mark) There's, you know, it's, there's a lot of stakeholders involved in this, in running this business. And, you know, it's basically having an opportunity to work with family is a blessing, but at the same time, sometimes you wonder if it's really just a curse.(Mark) And so we hired an individual to help us. His name was Tom Krauser. He had a group of printers nationwide, about 150 print owners across the country, and we participated in that group. He helped us navigate our business structure, the separation of duties that each brother has, what we do to keep the business running successfully.(Mark) And understanding that the business is the business and the family is the family. So, but there are times where the two are separate. A lot of times it's together, but there's a lot of times it has to be separate because without the business(Mark) and the family doesn't survive and it's something that we We had to learn we had we needed help in the early years and It was beneficial to us to participate in that group for as many years as we did and we learned a lot from that He's one of my mentors(Mark) He recently passed away, but he's one of those mentors that, well, what would, you know, you ask yourself, well, what would Tom do or what would Tom tell me? And a lot of times he'd say, you know, stop the stinking thinking is what he would say.(Butch) Yeah, that's got to be an interesting dynamic. And I give you and your brothers a lot of credit because, you know, I would I would think it would just be the best of times with your brothers and can also be the worst of times.(Mark) Yeah, you're right. You know, and it's, you know, a lot of people say I could never work with my family. Well, we grew up in a little farm. We were born and raised in a little farm town in Wellington, Kansas. I have six brothers and three sisters. So there's my parents had 10 children. And that's really kind of how our story started was my father was one of the.(Mark) He purchased a franchise with his uncle, with my uncle, and a good friend of theirs. And they were all absentee owners. And my father was an accountant with Grant Thornton. We had moved to Colorado Springs, Colorado. And a way to get his children off his payroll was he bought a franchise in Atlanta, Georgia. And as soon as we graduated high school,(Mark) we were basically given a plane ticket and a job to work in the family business in Atlanta, Georgia. So he flew us 1400 miles away from where we lived and we had to go out and make it for ourselves. His thought was, save up enough money and you can come back, live at home while you go to college.(Mark) Many of us did that. That's really how we got involved. About two years into working in the family business, the opportunity arose that my brothers and I were able to buy my father and his partner out. And then we were partners with my uncle for gosh, probably another 20 years. And we eventually bought my uncle out in 1990. And we've been going at it ever since. So that's a that's a great story, Mark.(Butch) So you mentioned pivoting and in business. And that's really what this show is about. I've been in business. I've been in sales for pushing 50 years. And one thing I know and you and I have talked about, is most everything has changed. But one thing that hasn't changed is that, pardon me, I believe buyers want to buy from someone(Butch) they know, like, and trust. And there have been two big pivots for me. One is just, and it hit home with all of us, was COVID. We all had to adapt and change with COVID. Also, we've had, for me anyway, a huge technology shift. The average B2B buyer is 39 years old. I have a daughter that age, and I promise she buys different than I do. And if you're older, just ask your kids how they buy.(Butch) Studies show that buyers now do 75% of their research before they want to talk to a salesperson. So if you're older, if you're like me, you know, Mark's a young guy, but if you're old like me, we've had to accept that it is different now and make those changes. So you mentioned pivoting. How have y'all pivoted? How have y'all made the changes over the years to be on top of the market now?(Mark) Well, and I take the analogy, I used to coach youth football and I coached the quarterbacks in the backfield. And when instructing the young quarterbacks, the first thing that a quarterback does is take one step backwards. After they get the ball, it's usually one step backwards. Even if they're gonna move forward, they take one step backwards and(Mark) then push forward. And with football, the quarterback has to pivot. So wherever he's gonna hand the ball off, he's gonna pivot right. He's gonna take that step back, see what the situation is, pivot right, pivot left, go forward, drop back for a pass, hand the ball off. That's what you have to do as a business owner, is you have to be willing to take that first(Mark) step back, take a view of the field, take a view of what the business community wants or needs. And I've done that numerous times over the years, but COVID was one of the big game changers. And it was not fun. It was not fun for any of us. It dramatically changed the way we did business. Thank goodness that we had the technologies like Zoom and(Mark) Microsoft Teams and the ability to do virtual networks, virtual meetings. One of the things that early on I was trying to figure out how I was going to do it because I've always done it face to face and there's a Someone I follow quite a bit He does business in bourbon. His name was ronald richards and I signed up for one of his events(Mark) and He sent me A bourbon, he basically sent me a box with a cocktail and so basically we talked business mostly sales is what we talked about, but(Mark) he had a probably there were probably 35 people on this zoom call and He had a mixologist show us how to make the cocktail it was an old-fashioned and showed us how to make the cocktail to start it off to capture everyone's attention. And then we went into he had a speaker on sales and we(Mark) discussed sales and marketing and, and the plans and how we were pivoting. And it just kind of that light kind of came on. And it said, Well, you know, I'm not, my clients don't want to see me. They don't want to be near me. They're trying to stay six feet away from me at the closest. So, you know, so basically it's making connections and then starting inviting(Mark) those clients and prospects and networking partners to Zoom meetings and, you know, maybe do a lunch, buy it, have Uber deliver a lunch to each one of those individuals or send them a gift card prior to the event to Starbucks if it's a morning coffee and they can buy a coffee in a Danish at Starbucks.(Mark) And it was just another way of thinking, how am I gonna be in front of my clients? You know, you have to sell where your clients want to be sold. And at that time, no one wanted to be sold, no one wanted to talk to a salesperson,(Mark) no one wanted to talk to anybody about business. And a lot of us suffered. And that was just one way to make that connection and start building that relationship and you know I still have a client today that you know will come back and say you know I can meet you for coffee but you know I'm really busy that morning why don't you just you know(Mark) we'll just meet for coffee over zoom and that's a great way to do it. But 45 years ago, I would have never dreamed of doing that. I would have never dreamed that I would have the capabilities or the technology to do that. And that's one of the things that I've learned. I went to college and took graphic arts,(Mark) and four nights I was in a dark room doing one color separation for a photograph that we were going to print in the school newspaper. And it took four hours every night to do those color separations. So a total of 16 hours for one photograph. Five to nine years later, Adobe Photoshop came in, you scan the photo, and then you click the button. The color separation was done. I mean, in what took me 12 hours(Mark) was done in 35 seconds, 40 seconds. And that's the way my industry's pivoted, but everybody's industry has pivoted and changed. and if you didn't change and Bring on the automation bring on the tools you need in order to make those things happen You weren't in business very long and I Admit, you know, I've just paid it in that group of 150 other printers nationwide and(Mark) Several of them didn't make it through their challenges. And it's because they weren't willing to pivot. They were stuck in their ways. They weren't willing to pivot. And you have to be willing to take that step back and see what the playing field is like today(Mark) and what it might be like tomorrow or the day after, and then move forward. That's really how you have to look at it. I think every business owner understands that. They may not know that's what they're doing, but the successful ones,(Mark) they do it on a daily basis.(Butch) For sure. One thing you said, I don't want to say it's a pet peeve of mine, but it's a mantra of mine, was we have to meet buyers where they are not where we wish they were. Right. And for the first 35 years of my sales career, at least, I knew where they were. And I can pick up the I can pick up the telephone, call them,(Butch) and say, let's meet. And the only discussion was, are we going to meet for lunch or coffee, or you want me to come to your office? I'll use the 39-year-old as an example. If you called my son-in-law and said, let's meet for lunch, he would probably(Butch) think why? We can have a 20-minute call and it doesn't take, you know, I don't have to get in my car, drive somewhere, find a parking place, take two hours to have lunch, you know, I lose three,(Mark) four hours in my day. So talk a little bit about how you have adapted to that challenge. So, you know, the example is, is COVID. I do direct mail. I do a direct mail, I do a lot of direct mail for my clients, but I do a postcard every month that I send out to my clients and prospects and networking partners. And during COVID, no one was going into the office. So I didn't have a database of the addresses to meet those people where they were(Mark) because all of a sudden they were no longer there. And one of the great things that, I'm not a great golfer, but one of the great things, golf was one of the only things that you could do during COVID and be in a personal space with others. And so that was one of the things.(Mark) So if people played golf, we would go to a golf course. And you make it about them, if they played golf, we would go to a golf course. And you make it about them, if they play golf. If the other the other example is, is I have a we have a mutual friend and he and I basically, you know, about once every other month or so. We go target shooting. And that's because that's what he enjoys.(Mark) So it's about(Speaker 3) building relationships first(Mark) Before you even talk about sales the before you even talk about your products. I have a longtime client and friend and he and I were paired up in a golf tournament never didn't know each other before and we talked to each other about our nonprofits that we, you know, the charities we worked with and and how we tried(Mark) to make a difference in the world. And we didn't find out what each other did until it was, you know, we were in a clubhouse after playing a days of golf, a days worth of golf. And, you know, that's(Mark) basically because we were building a relationship first. We were trying to find out the personal information and what makes each other tick. And then after we finished the golf, then we talked about how we feed our dogs and our families. And that's building relationships. First is like(Mark) you said earlier on is you know people buy from people. They know like and trust and if you haven't built that relationship or establish that relationship, you won't have many people buying from you and they will buy from you if you're the cheapest person in town, but they won't come back consistently time and time again. Individuals, buyers, people, me, I look for the value of the relationship,(Mark) the value that if there's a mistake, I can pick up the phone and call somebody. I don't do a lot of online shopping. I'm not one of those people and it's partially because my age. And that's, you know, they have certain online businesses that basically, if you don't like it, return it. Well, me, you don't like it, call me and I'll see about what I can do to fix it and make it right. And that's that's really the more personal I'm not looking for millions and(Mark) millions of people to buy my printing. I'm not looking for millions and millions of people to buy my printing. I'm just looking for a select few quality individuals that value the relationship and that I can value the relationship I have with them. They can value the relationship with me. But it's all about being where they wanna be,(Mark) not where I wanna sell their product. Sell them my product(Speaker 4) or services.(Mark) So, Mark, let me ask you about this. So I'll start this by saying before I took my current job with Fist Bump, my LinkedIn LinkedIn page was two jobs old. And I may have said happy birthday to somebody somewhere along the way, but that was about the extent of LinkedIn for me. But I believe now, and I tell CEO sales leaders this,(Mark) whether you like it or not, LinkedIn is the business platform that you need to be on because that's where people go to look for who they're going to do business with. And I know you do a good job of posting valuable information on a regular basis. The way I look at LinkedIn is it's a 24-7 networking meeting. I can find anybody I want to find that is going to be in my ICP and use correctly. It's what everyone(Mark) needs to be doing. So share a little bit about your philosophy on LinkedIn. I'm just going to let you know that I'm a longtime user of LinkedIn. I don't know how long I've been using, but probably 2009, maybe 2010. I basically spend about a half hour to an hour every day on LinkedIn in some form, whether it's posting content, replying to other people's content, reaching out, doing(Mark) introductions. I do a lot of introductions. I share profiles. Someone says, can you introduce me to so and so? And I do a lot of that on LinkedIn because I can kind of manage that flow I can manage the interaction between those two people make sure that those people are connected(Mark) before they take me offline, so So I get to see a lot of that it also is valuable because By making those introductions in those connections, I'm developing relationships. So when I connect to people on LinkedIn and they do business with one another, every time they do business, who do they think of? They think of Mark McKenzie because I'm the person they introduced.(Mark) That's why I'm a firm believer in givers gain. You know, the Ivan Miser, me and I thought is givers gain. And, you know, I'm a big fan of Adam Adam Grant, his book, Give and Take. It's about givers and takers, and you want to be a giver.(Mark) And LinkedIn allows me to do a lot of that. And the tools that I'm able to use on LinkedIn are valuable every day. So I can do my research. I can find a targeted audience that I want to be in front of. I can find out information about those people that I'm trying to connect with, about the(Mark) prospects, the people I met last night at a networking event. I can find out what they might like, know, and trust, you know, what they might like to do so I can meet them where they want to be met. So that's really the the key is is every salesperson, actually every business person, needs to have a LinkedIn account. And I my son, like your daughter, my son is 36 years old. As soon as he graduated from UGA, I told him, I said, you need to get on LinkedIn.(Mark) Actually, when he started as a junior in college, he was looking at internships and opportunities. And I said, get on LinkedIn, create your profile, you know, connect with all your friends, connect with your alumni, connect with your professors, connect with anybody that went to the University of Georgia that might have the same interests as you or might be able to help connect you to people to the(Mark) opportunities that you might need or want in the future. And I did the same thing with my nephew who went to Furman University and I he's the same age as my son and he's my godson and I he just asked me what do you think and I said you know on LinkedIn you you paid a lot of money to go to college you paid a lot of money to participate in your fraternities.(Mark) Utilize that alumni association and the people that went to the same college. You have something in common and that's how you start a great relationship is you find the commonality. And once you find that commonality, you can build on those relationships.(Mark) And LinkedIn is such a great tool. That wealth of information is there and there's so many other tools available to actually do your research and your mining and and looking into the relationships you want to build on LinkedIn. That makes LinkedIn probably the number one sales tool.(Mark) And I don't know how many millions and millions of business owners are on LinkedIn, but almost every CEO I wanna be in front of has a LinkedIn account. And they have three degrees of separation. So it's third degree, second degree and first degree.(Mark) If you have a connection that's in the second degree and first degree if you if you have a connection That's in the second degree that's connected to the person that you want to meet Reach out to them and find out if they can help you make that introduction That's what it's all about is helping each other. But at the same time you have to do your research and You have to have a plan of what you want to do that day on LinkedIn.(Mark) So I'm just, because it's like any other social media, it could be a suck of time. If you're not scheduling the appointment and have the agenda as what you want to accomplish that day on your LinkedIn channel, then you could spend all day there and not really do anything. It's kind of, I have a good friend that says, you know, there's a fine line between networking and not working. So when you go into, you know, you go to events in the evening, if you don't have(Mark) an agenda of what you want to accomplish that night, and a set agenda is who you want to meet, what kind of people you want to meet, who you'd like to talk to, and what you'd like to get out of it, and then have a follow-up on that. Basically, you're not working.(Mark) You're just going out to a party and not taking care of business. Have your agenda, do your follow-up. Me, I never network without a wing person. I always, one way I build relationships, I'm trying to always invite others to join me at events. And sometimes it might be one person, sometimes zero,(Mark) but sometimes it might be five or 10 people show up and network with me and then you divide the room and conquer you have a plan you they know what I'm looking for I know what they're looking for if I run into someone that might be a perfect connection for them I go over and make that introduction right then and there if it's after the event we do the follow-up. If I met somebody that they probably should meet,(Mark) I'll try to do a connection on LinkedIn for that. But it's never network alone, but always have an agenda. No, it's, one of my sales coaches a long time ago told me, you know, work your plan. Have a plan and work that plan, and that's what gets you to where and know your numbers.(Mark) Know, you know, I've got to meet 15 people so I can make one quality relationship that might end up in an opportunity for business, hopefully within the next six months, but you know, it could be longer. You know, I've had people I met five or six years ago(Mark) that all of a sudden they show up at my door with a print project and then I'm able to help. And it's taken five years before they had something, but it's all about building relationship and providing value.(Butch) Thanks, Mark. One of the things I'll say about Mark is just from knowing him the amount of time I have known him is he definitely has a servant's heart. And one thing that I have always believed is I can't give enough because I'm always going to get back more than I give. And you don't know what that looks like.(Butch) You know, I may really pour into you and you may never, I may never get anything back from you, but somebody over here, somebody over here, I'm going to get a lot from, and I've always gotten more back than I gave when I, when I was really doing it with a servant's heart. And I know you believe that. so speak to that a little bit(Butch) and tell us how your golf tournament evolved out of that.(Mark) So that's really one of the things that, so I have a friend, I was in a networking, basically an executive networking, business owners. It was called Entrepreneur Advisors at the time, and it's evolved into what's called CLIFCO now. A long-time friend of mine, we were Atlanta JCs back in the 80s(Mark) and Atlanta Junior Chamber of Commerce and we worked on the empty stocking fund with the Atlanta Journal of Constitution. And he had an event and he basically brought business owners, entrepreneurs and executives into a facility, a networking opportunity, brought in speakers. And one of the members was Angie Rakop and she became a very good friend of mine,(Mark) but we were at a horse farm. I'd known her for about a year and a half and we were in one of those events for the entrepreneur advisors. I'd known her for about a year and a half and we were we were in an event one of those events for the entrepreneur advisors and we were at a Egyptian Arabian horse farm and they were doing as show horses and they had a farm up near Dalton and it had two indoor(Mark) show arenas indoor covered arenas and we were inside and I was with my wife and my daughter and Angie was standing next to me and I just said said to my wife I said this kind of reminds me growing up in Kansas you know near my grandma's farm and and Angie looked at me and said well what you know what part of Kansas I said it's a little farm town you would know you would not not even know what it is you know where(Mark) it's at it's it's tiny I, it's called Neoshe, Kansas. And she looked at me and says, how do you know how to say Neoshe? And I said, well, that's where my family, my mother's side of the family grew up. And long story short, her great-great aunt(Mark) was the first white child born. He used to be an Indian reservation there in Kansas not too far from the Oklahoma border border and Her great-great-aunt was named the O'Shea and that's what the city was named after was her great-great-aunt You know, I'd known her for a year and a half and we'd never not had that relationship. So we figured we were cousin cousins. Well she basically started a golf tournament, raising money for St. Jude's Children's Hospital. And because of the relationship(Mark) and kind of getting to know her a little bit better, I just said, well, it was her second year. I said, well, let me print the signage and your T signs and your banner, whatever. And I'd love to help. Let me sponsor and I'll bring it for some. And so I did that the first year and it was a lot of fun. And so I just asked her after the tournament,(Mark) I said, well, what are you gonna do next year to grow this tournament? I said, cause it could, you know, it's great cause, you could raise a little bit of money. And she said, I don't know. I said, well, you should probably get an advisory board, you know, and have some people help you with that. And she goes, perfect. You're the first advisory board member. And she volunteered me and I've been doing it. So third year I was on the advisory board. We're now in our 19th year. We now,(Mark) our tournament, the money we raise benefits, it's called Golf for the Kids and it benefits Children's Healthcare of Atlanta and the Aflac Cancer Center. We earmarked the first $15,000 for the K9 for Kids program. We actually have a dog, his name is Olaf, and he walks the halls. It's their service dog and therapy dogs. I think they have 16 to 17 dogs currently walking the halls,(Mark) helping those cancer patients heal and get better. And it's near and dear to my heart. I'm blessed. My children, my son went to children's healthcare when he broke his wrist one time. And that's all we've ever had to use(Mark) children's healthcare for. But I'm blessed that we haven't had to go through some of the challenges other families have to go through. And part of what we do is to help the healing process of those young children battling cancer. And at the end of the day, a lot of them(Mark) come out of that treatment and live healthy lives. Others don't make it. And that's the sad part about it is a lot of families lose someone they love dearly and it's heartbreaking. But we're there to help. I mean, our tournament's a small tournament.(Mark) I think last year we raised $70,000 for Children's Healthcare of Atlanta. And it's a great cause. It's called Golf for the Kids. We're always looking for corporate sponsors. Again, Children's Healthcare of Atlanta during COVID,(Mark) they lost a lot of their money that was donated and raised because they do a lot of special events. And with COVID, they couldn't do special events. And we almost didn't have our tournament that year in 2020 because of COVID. And they reached out to us and said, look, our events October, this year it's October 27th, it's usually the last Monday of the month in October.(Mark) And they said, look, we really want you to do that tournament. And like I said before, golf was one of those activities that allow people to get outdoors. You know, when you're playing, if you play golf like me, you spend a lot of time in the woods looking for golf balls. So I wasn't really on the fairway close to a lot of the other golfers I played with. But that's the first year we surpassed $70,000 in donations, because there was such a pent up demand for(Mark) people to get outside and do something worthy and worth cause. And go outside and get back to their normal lives, so to speak. And it was very successful. We estimated we'd only raised about 20, $25,000 that year, and we just blew the doors off of it. And so we have some great sponsors.(Mark) We have a great advisory board, and we have also friends of the board. So people that may have been on the advisory board, their lives have changed. They have other things they have to take care of, but they still basically contribute to our tournament. And so they're friends of the board. So it's strong.(Mark) We're in our 19th year and Angie Rakup is a phenomenal individual and she does well. She runs a great ship, sometimes almost too great for me, but you know that's the kiss and cousin part. You know we're we butt heads once in a while but it's all for the same, we're doing it for the same reason and for the same cause. And if anyone's interested, they could go to golfforthekids.com(Mark) and look at sponsorships or sign up for foursomes and or even donating. So I'd be more than happy to talk to anybody about that if they wanna reach out to me.(Butch) Well, Mark, as we get kind of closer to wrapping up here, talk about reputation, authenticity, responsiveness, how those things work for you, how it's worked for your business(Mark) and how it's worked for your personal life. So reputation, I'll start with first. You know I mentioned that we we are a small family-owned business and but I come from a large family and I remember growing up you know we were in a small town you know I was a troublemaker. I was probably the black sheep of the family.(Mark) So I was the one always getting in trouble. And my dad used to always say, you know, what you do reflects on the rest of the family. And it reflects basically back on the people you associate with, your other family members, you know, your coaches.(Mark) I played a lot of youth sports. It reflects back on them. So try to do what's right. Try to do what's correct and fair. Excuse me. But we participated in that group,(Mark) the peer group of other business print owners, owners of print shops. There were about 150 of them. We'd meet two times a year as a large group, and then we split up into small peer groups. We always showed up with two or three of us at every meeting. It was just that's the way we wanted to do business. That's how we wanted to make decisions that involved our business.(Mark) And we were known as the famous McKenzie brothers. Everybody would say, oh, well, here come the famous McKenzie brothers. Well, you know, that's a that's a reputation that you have. And it's about providing value to others. And, you know, it's part of your character. It's, you know, being authentic every day.(Mark) Try, you know, living within your lane, so to speak. You know, knowing what you want to do, knowing what you want to achieve, knowing the legacy that you want to leave behind. That's important. It really is. And being authentic and true to those thoughts and those beliefs are very valuable. And we talked about building valuable relationships. Well, those are the type of people I wanna be around.(Mark) I wanna be around people that are providing value on a daily basis, that stick to their word, that say yes. If I say I'm gonna do it, it gets done. And I'm not perfect, and really I'm very far from being perfect, but when I tell people I'll try to do this(Mark) or yes, I can do that, when I tell a client that yes, I can do it, well, I have to first go to one of the brothers and make sure that they can do it. And then they have to go to a brother and make sure that they can do it. So, and then they have to go to a brother and make sure that they(Mark) can do it. So it's working as a team. And you know, there's times where I have to say, no, I can't do it. But that's where you're authentic. I mean, sometimes you have to say no to people that are asking for stuff because you can't deliver and you don't want to disappoint. You'd rather be honest up front and say, no, I can't do that, then say, yes, I'll do it. And then never deliver. And how do you stay in business for 50 years? A lot of blessings, a lot of luck, a lot of hard work,(Mark) but also a lot of honesty, being honest with the people you're surrounded with, your vendors, your customers, your prospects, your stakeholders. I mean, so we have to get to talk to your family. I mean, my wife is a stakeholder. My children are stakeholders.(Mark) My grandchildren are stakeholders in this business. And the same goes for my families were all stakeho we put them first, uh, an we will come out on the w really what it's about. A consistently doing the sa(Mark) trying to learn from every so you don't do it again, allows you to survive to the next day. And you know it's like trying to eat an elephant, you know, one small bite at a time. At the end of that, hopefully you get your dessert.(Butch) You know Mark, reputation is so important. And. I kid you about this, but I really did have two people tell me you were the one that you were mayor coming and the other that you were the mayor of Buckhead, really? And so you were somebody I wanted to meet. I just wanted to meet who this guy is. And our friend, Sian Wild Goose,(Butch) said this one time and it just, it really resonated with me. And she said, she always taught her students, she was a school teacher, that your reputation goes through the door before you do.(Speaker 3) Right.(Butch) And I knew that about you before we ever met.(Mark) And I, and you know, but it's also being authentic with every interaction that that you choose to to delve into. And and basically, you know, I grew up, I went to a parochial school. So I'm just going to just tell you that the nuns beat it into me(Mark) that it's better to give than receive. And I still firmly believe that. And like you said early on, I may not see the benefits of the give that I have, but hopefully down the line, my children or grandchildren or their children(Mark) will see the benefits of the give. Or my neighbor's children will see the benefits of the give. or my neighbor's children will see the benefits of the gift, or the children at Children's Healthcare of Atlanta will see the benefit of the gift. That's what it's all about, is, you know, it's better to give than receive. And if you give enough, you're going to receive in abundance. And that's my philosophy on it. And Sarah Ann Wild Goose is phenomenal. And she, that's just a great inspiration(Mark) and a great lesson for many students is that your reputation precedes you. It's first through that door. And that's why you learn to say sorry and I apologize and let me fix it and make it right. Because we all make mistakes we all you know but(Mark) it's if I made that mistake honestly and authentically I was trying to do what you know what was best for everyone and I still came up not winning. You know, I learned from that lesson and move forward. That's that's what it's all about.(Butch) Well, Mark, I want to give you many thanks for being on the show today. You shared a lot of wisdom and things that work for you. So people can apply those things and adjust them, adapt them and make them work for them. If you want to get in touch with Mark, you've seen it across the scroll under our pictures here today. I know that you can also get in touch with him on LinkedIn and the same with me with the giving part, where we are both happy to help you in any way that you can, or we can,(Butch) any way you need help and we can help. And one of the things I'll tell you too is if I can't help, and I know Mark's the same way, I know somebody who can, and Mark knows somebody who can, so feel free to reach out. Mark, thanks for your time. You did a great job. And I want to leave you with this. We're not starting over.(Butch) This isn't about starting over. This is about evolving. Same wisdom, different tools.(Mark) Appreciate you being with us today. Thanks Butch. I appreciate you. And you stay blessed, my friend. I appreciate you. And you stay blessed, my friend.(Butch) Same to you, Mark.